For in six days...

[bugs'lee]

Ray stated that:
This raises an interesting topic that we have discussed before. What is our concept of how the bible came to be written. Very few accept a direct dictation theory - they do not think that God said "Now write this down word for word" Most accept that the Bible was written by humans and bears the hallmarks of their humanity. Where it speaks of divine things it is the words of godly humans about the divine. By grace these might draw us into real communion with the divine but it's not helpful to think of them as the "the Word of God" in any absolute sense.


Ray! where on earth did you get information that very few accept a direct dictation theory? That is such rubbish and an insult to God, as if God is not capable to bring about his Will in this world. 'You have it so wrong. And your teaching will cause people to fall away.
Psalm 139 says that God knows every word on our tongues before we even speak. How do you know God does not dictate? He is not limited. Have you never been in a position where you have guided somebody and they turn round to you and said "God has just spoken". The words came direct from God not humans. Where do you place the Holy Spirit in your Christian theology. Is he not a person

By the way there is no such thing as godly humans We all fall short of the glory of God and the penalty for sin is death. We are made holy by what Christ has done for us, not who we are in our human state.

[bugs'lee]

I read through some of the thread and the problem is there, yet again.

Q. Who said the bible contains mainly poetry?

God does not say to Moses. Write down some poetry for me, I feel a verse coming on.

Christ says: " You study the Scriptures for in them you believe you will find life."

The Scriptures being the Old Testament because the New Testament was not classed as the writings of the Prophets not having been written yet. The fulfillment of those Scriptures being Jesus Christ. Do you see why Christ became the beginning and the end of Gods teachings regarding life and death/salvation?

Only one way to God and that is Jesus Christ. The bible is a pathway to God which leads to Christ being the Path.

How do we know the bible is truth?

1. God cannot and does not lie.

2. Every Word of God is pure and he keeps them. 6.The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7.Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Every Prophets, Disciple in fact all Holy Men of God, spoke not from themselves but by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Christ himself declaring his Words were Spirit and they were life.

3. Moses and Christ teach: Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.


If you do not believe what he says about his own Words how can you say you trust him or know what his will is?
Gods word has to be truth for he is truth and Christ confirms this when he says, " I am the Way, the Truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me."

Love TZ.xx

Well done TZ what you have written is worth reading again.

Thought! How would we know the Way the Truth and the life without the Scriptures and confirmation of Gods order.
Question! What is every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God if he did not guild his people to say what was written

Ray! Did you not know that Moses spoke with God face to Face. In fact his face was so bright he had to wear a vail so the people could look at him. The ten commandments was a direct communication or was that poetry?
A foundation is important without it, then its sinking sand.

[bugs'lee]

When Moses states 'six days' & 'seventh day' does he mean days of '24hrs' or is he being poetical ?
Are we to believe that generations that have interpreted this as 'a sabbath day' as being decieved by poetry?

In my reply of 1:16am on Wednesday I stated my understanding of the genre and motivation of Exodus. Part of the contol was using the nation's mytho-cultural assumptions to reinforce social conformity and thereby national cohesion.

This being so attempting to use this passage to reason back to a six 24 hour day creation is, I believe, wrongheaded and fruitless - but if it pleases anyone to try to do that then go ahead - such a belief is not of the essence of being a Christian but nor does it exclude one from the Church!

Ray! I fail to see what is wrongheaded about believing in a 24 hour day Creation. Is not your day a 24 hour. What planet are you on? I find it just as wrongheaded to believe in billions of years. 0000000000000000000.

According to Ray, lets all work stupid hours never resting. Don't worry about taking a rest day or even having a Sabbath rest, because it was just poetry and it did not mean rest from work and take time out to worship and draw strength from God. Then you will be excluded yourself from church because you will be so busy and never turn up

[Sceptical]

Ray! Did you not know that Moses spoke with God face to Face. In fact his face was so bright he had to wear a vail so the people could look at him. The ten commandments was a direct communication or was that poetry?

 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

God says that you have the same status as a house or a donkey

[Twilight zone]

Q. Who said the bible contains mainly poetry?

Nobody said that the Bible is mainly poetry. All who spend any time thoughtfully engage with scripture recognise that a wide range of literary genres are found therein. About 30% of the Bible is in the form of (mostly) Hebrew poetry. Recognising the literary genres is an important step in studying scripture in any depth.

Hi Ray,

I cannot agree with that. Christ said what was written about him in the Scriptures had been fulfilled.
What is it we need to have an in depth study about? The bible is TRUTH for myself, that is what makes it important.
The most important TRUTH is every Word of the Old Testament came from the mouth of God.
The New Testament reveals how Christ came the bridge between the OT and NT, the Bridge of salvation between God and Man, and that being within his truth we can know both him and the Father.
The element that the bible teaches is the Spirit and the Truth go hand in hand. That everyone needs the Holy Spirit and the Truth in Christ.

God does not say to Moses. Write down some poetry for me, I feel a verse coming on. [/b]

This raises an interesting topic that we have discussed before. What is our concept of how the bible came to be written. Very few accept a direct dictation theory - they do not think that God said "Now write this down word for word" Most accept that the Bible was written by humans and bears the hallmarks of their humanity. Where it speaks of divine things it is the words of godly humans about the divine. By grace these might draw us into real communion with the divine but it's not helpful to think of them as the "the Word of God" in any absolute sense.

TRUTH Then we must learn how to evaluate and merit Truth as God tells us to.
I have found by obeying the bible, both OT and NT that both(covenants) ways work.
As Christ shows that new wine requires new skins and man needs his mind renewed.
The proof of truth is that is does what it says it will. Can there be any other proof of it being Gods words?
Psalm 12:6-7 & Isaiah 55:10-11.
10.For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11.So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Gods Words are powerful and the bible is no different. Christ is the promised Messiah of the bible.
If Christ was telling the truth as the Prophets foretold it, then the Word has already been accomplished in Christ.
What happens after this is that all men shall be in Spirit and that the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which the Spirit gives. This not accomplished by the wisdom and teachings of men unto understanding and deliberation of the bible.
It is that every man must have and be taught by the Spirit. The parable of the virgins being ready for Christs return.

Some find comfort in thinking of the bible as the absolute inerrant infallible Word of God - thats ok for them. Many devout Christians find such and approach unhelpful and in some cases dishonest and are prepared to give solid reasons for their position.

I think the error is IN not understanding what the inerrant word of God teaches rather than not understanding how it was written or by what hand.

you might find it interesting to read pete enns article here: Yahweh Creation and the Cosmic Battlehe looks at possible sources for the creation narrative and says a bit about the poetry in the bible

Thanks I shall take a look when I get time. Can I ask what you, yourself have gleamed useful from Pete Enns article if anything?

Love TZ.xx

[Barnabas]

God says that you have the same status as a house or a donkey

That is your interpretation and so far from the truth ! Man made in the image of God is not valued as you so wrongly presume.

[Barnabas]

Well done TZ what you have written is worth reading again.

Agreed. Sorry I missed it the first time.

[Sceptical]

God says that you have the same status as a house or a donkey

That is your interpretation and so far from the truth ! Man made in the image of God is not valued as you so wrongly presume.

It's not my interpretation. It's a simple reading of the text.

[Barnabas]

God says that you have the same status as a house or a donkey

That is your interpretation and so far from the truth ! Man made in the image of God is not valued as you so wrongly presume.

It's not my interpretation. It's a simple reading of the text.

Where does it say 'you have the same status as a house or a donkey' ? Therefore it is your interpretation of the text which is being discussed on a separate thread.

[Sceptical]

Definition of covet:

  • verb (coveted, coveting) yearn to possess (something belonging to someone else).

my emphasis

And what examples does God give of things a man shouldn't covet?

House
Wife
Male slave
Female slave
Ox
Donkey
"or anything that belongs to your neighbour"

I'm just reading it

[Barnabas]

the text which is being discussed on a separate thread.

[bugs'lee]

Ray! Did you not know that Moses spoke with God face to Face. In fact his face was so bright he had to wear a vail so the people could look at him. The ten commandments was a direct communication or was that poetry?

 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

God says that you have the same status as a house or a donkey

Wow, I wonder if the House is worth millions The foundations are solid and what a lovely animal, a Donkey. A donkey can speak to stubborn, sinful Humans

" You shall not covet your neighbour's house. Is that the hard working single lady running a family after being widowed because her Husband died in Iraq while at war? or a single lady running a family because her husband died in 9/11 while at work.

I think you need to be careful Sceptical with your lack of wisdom Ask God he will give you some

[Twilight zone]

Hi Bug's,

Missed this...

Well done TZ what you have written is worth reading again.

Thought! How would we know the Way the Truth and the life without the Scriptures and confirmation of Gods order.

Living TRUTH,

Truth that makes Christianity what it always was. It was always Gods will to put his Spirit within us so no one required teaching.
Jeremiah 31:31-34. How did the Prophets speak the truth? How did Stephen speak the truth in Acts 7?
Streams of living water comes from the Holy Spirit. How does anyone not come under the law? By living in the Spirit.
All the Prophets spoke by the power of Gods Spirit. The books of law were given to Moses and Christ is one like Moses who brings the living way of obeying Gods laws to love God and others. Without Christ there would not have been a baptism in the Holy Spirit. God himself saying, 34.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
So, the new covenant is sin forgiven and 'knowing' God without the need to be taught.
That is why Christ says, " Go away I never knew you." We can all try and live by the old way of the commandments and written law. But God requires every man now to be born of Spirit and Truth. So we who are being saved know the true God and know that we do not require teaching from scriptures or man. Because the annointing leads us into all truth. By letting us live the life God has ordained for us.

1 John 2:27 (King James Version)

27.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Gentiles whom Peter spoke to in Acts 10:35-46 had no previous knowledge of scripture just believed on his name and received the Holy Spirit.

Question! What is every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God if he did not guild his people to say what was written

What is the power of Gods words that it never fails to do as it is sent?
The book of the living was written before the foundation of the World...
Because God knows our hearts and our choices. Every word before we speak it...

[Sceptical]

Wow, I wonder if the House is worth millions The foundations are solid and what a lovely animal, a Donkey. A donkey can speak to stubborn, sinful Humans

" You shall not covet your neighbour's house. Is that the hard working single lady running a family after being widowed because her Husband died in Iraq while at war? or a single lady running a family because her husband died in 9/11 while at work.

I think you need to be careful Sceptical with your lack of wisdom Ask God he will give you some

Not really worth a comment

[Ray]

Ray! where on earth did you get information that very few accept a direct dictation theory? That is such rubbish and an insult to God, as if God is not capable to bring about his Will in this world. 'You have it so wrong. And your teaching will cause people to fall away.
Psalm 139 says that God knows every word on our tongues before we even speak. How do you know God does not dictate? He is not limited.

Bugs' rejection of the "Dictation theory" is not my idea. Jim Packer rightly points out that:

This ‘dictation theory’ is a man of straw. It is safe to say that no Protestant theologian, from the reformation till now, has held it; and certainly modern Evangelicals do not hold it.

The problem might be that you don't understand the details of the dictation theory or the reason why most theologians have rejected it. Let me ask a simple question: "does the character of the human writer have any effect on what is written? Can we tell anything about the character of the writer from the form of the text?"

How do you know God does not dictate? He is not limited. Have you never been in a position where you have guided somebody and they turn round to you and said "God has just spoken". The words came direct from God not humans.

If that ever happened to you - would you say that your words were as inspired as the words of the Bible? If not, why not? What is your theory of inspiration?